Bij het gesprek van 11 februari 2020 waren de Minister, de Secretaris-Generaal van Justitie (hierna: SG), de Chief of Staff van het Ministerie en [eiser] met zijn gemachtigde aanwezig. Volgens het daarvan opgestelde gespreksverslag is onder meer het volgende gezegd:
Minister: “(…) I would like to first discuss the statement you made to the lawyer of the inmates, Ms Roseburg, that you cannot guarantee the safety of her clients. Can you please explain?
[eiser]: “Yes it is very simply and the truth. No prison in the world can guarantee the safety of any inmate. No government can guarantee the safety in no prison and in no house. Not even the police can guarantee safety of the people.”
Minister: “I don’t agree. As prison director you are responsible in maintaining the safety and security in the institution and thereby keeping the inmates safe. You open the doors for more court cases against government by making such a statement.”
(…)
Minister: “What is going on with the camera’s? (…)
[eiser]: “(…) The matter of getting them fixed is not in our hands. It is in the hands of CHUBB. It is in the hands of the government; of the Ministry. The prices went sky high. Because of this we decided to close off with CHUBB and look for a local company to take care of the camera’s.”
“I am aware of the scanning machine. (…) My decision is to wait for the purchase of a new UPS. We are waiting on treasury department to issue the cheque.”
“No [the entire security of the prison is] not jeopardized. The 1st check is at the ‘poort’. When the workers come in all bags are searched and then the hand scanner is used for the body search. All visitors have to be searched on their body. Without the baggage scanner we can still search. We have a hand scanner. The baggage scanner is a tool. It is a very important tool, but it doesn’t compromise the security. (…)”
(…)
Minister: “The letter of [unithoofd] talks about a ‘VERY DANGEROUS’ situation for the personnel as well as the inmates. Besides not responding to her letter and it being an ‘emotional’ letter, what did you do?”
[eiser]: “We have meetings. [Unithoofd] never shows up.”
(…)
[eiser]: “In the letter you said you tried tirelessly to contact me; I think It is overstated. The prison called once. From [medewerkster] I received one email on the 30th of November. I received two or three calls from you. I think the word ‘tirelessly is overstated. I didn’t feel good, so I put my phone on silence. Normally the prison director get an allowance to be available. I did not get that allowance.”
(…)
Minister: “How would you know if it is an emergency or not when you never returned the calls? To you, me the Minister, calling you, was not an emergency?
[eiser]: “No. Because when I saw the calls the time was gone a long time.”
(…)
[eiser]: “Indeed I said the inmates in which cells we find contraband cannot go to work. The inmates association has the prison under control. (…) There was unrest. Yes, it happened and we have to deal with it.”
Minister: “Point nr. 3. You never updated me in regards to the grievances of the inmates.”
[eiser]: “I didn’t know you wanted to be updated.”
“I did everything you requested, even the ones that were not right, like the USB sticks and the business visits. (…)
It is against the regulations. It is a ‘Ministriele Regeling’, the Minister can deviate, but it has to be in writing and publicized.
The vacation days, I didn’t get an answer from you, I assumed you were ok with it. Normally within two days there should be a response. I got your answer 10 days after, on January 6th. It stated ‘niet akoord’.
Minister: ”You left, you were not here for me to give you an answer. I feel you don’t communicate with me. (…)”
SG: “(…) To the question in regards to the statements to the lawyer. I agree, the director cannot give any guarantee on the safety of the inmates. You, Minister, cannot guarantee the safety. (…) You talk about ‘firing’ Mr. [eiser]; what is it based on.”
Minister: “Did I indicate that I will fire anyone?”
SG: “Well, ‘consideration’, what is it based on? Because he indicated to a third party that he cannot guarantee the safety of the inmates? I think it would of been good practice to call the person before going out with a letter like that.”